Episode #6. This episode focuses on Social Media – a technical skill that has truly changed the landscape for marketers to build greater connections with your consumers. Abby’s Social Media specialist guest is the awesome Michelle Carvill, successful author of #getsocial and director of Carvill Creative agency. Michelle shares the true benefit of social media for B2C and B2B brands, who’s doing it well (and why) and how to avoid the pitfalls of simply broadcasting or ‘ filling the feeds’ to get the maximum impact from your social media strategy.
Resources/brands mentioned in this podcast:
https://www.michellecarvill.com/
The Art of Being Social – by Michelle Carvill
#Get Social – by Michelle Carvill
Sponsored by Labyrinth Marketing
FULL TRANSCRIPT (with timecode)
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This podcast is brought to you by Labyrinth Marketing.
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So hello and welcome to the Whole Marketer Podcast.
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Today’s podcast is a technical skill and the technical skill we can discuss today is social media. So before I introduce you to today’s guest Michelle Carvel I just wanted to give you an overview as to why I think social media is so important for us to discuss today. So there is an increase in demand on marketers to use social media platforms to communicate because they’re both economic and measurable. However, whether social media is pained owned or earned it isn’t always the most relevant platform for our target audience or customers.
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And the messaging not always engaging or necessarily tailored to the role his platform makes in decision making. So what I want to do today and why I think it’s so important is I wanted to spend the time with an expert. So Michelle I welcome her on in a sec improving the skill to make sure that we do select the relevant platform and use the platform as part of an omni channel approach. So tailoring and engaging the right message at the right time with our consumers on their journey. It’s also a skill along with content marketing that marketers need to develop and we’ll talk more about that today.
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So today’s guest is Michelle Carvel. She is a also a fellow fellow at the CRM. We met a couple of years ago at the fellows dinner and had the opportunistic chance of sitting next to her. We chatted all night about all things social and all things marketing and as leaving that night for the House of Commons we both paused to swap firm high heels to trainers. We both whipped out bright yellow trainers and at that point I knew we were going to be friends forever.
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She is an expert in all things social media as I said she’s written for bestselling books. She’s the founder and director of Carvill Creative and she’s a passionate Yogi. She’s just full of energy and awesomeness which you’ll see throughout today’s talk. She’s been at the forefront of social media from the start and is now on a crusade to focus on how leaders can also use social media to connect communicate and show up authentically and inspire via social media. Michelle welcome to the Whole Marketer podcast. Great thank you for that introduction and wonderful to be here.
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Abby it’s lovely to have you. So big juicy question upfront what in your words is social media?
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You know what. This is a great question and it was a question that I have pondered a lot and I can tell you exactly what it’s not you know it’s not about broadcasting it’s not purely just about broadcasting and we’ll come on to that and I you know that’s that’s an area that I think a lot of marketers and a lot of organizations thinks it is for me. I think social media is way more complex than that, it’s deeper, it’s it’s an opportunity to really connect and communicate with audiences.
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And by that I mean not just talking at them but listening learning what’s going on conversing with them in a very human way really engaging so that you can build brand relationships engagement and you can do that at scale.
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So what platforms you know do you think are the most suitable then. Or is it dependent on on the target audience.
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Yeah I mean it’s dependent on your audience. I mean many years ago when when the social channels kind of first came into existence you know it was common for organizations to jump on to every single channel you know everybody had a Facebook or Twitter maybe you know when Pinterest came out a YouTube it was just you know you would see the array of symbols across websites or on the back of packaging as that became more popular.
00:03:53:15 – 00:04:28:26
And and I suppose everybody tweeted each of the social media channels as if they were one thing. Oh it’s just social media. So you know how we use Facebook is the same way we use linked in and how we use linked in is the same way we use Twitter. And of course that’s that’s not the case. Each of these channels has its own nuances. It has its own ways of optimizing engagement. And it has its own preferences. You know around content and and consumer how consumers how people want to engage and use those channels.
00:04:28:28 – 00:04:56:00
So think about your own use of social media you know do you go on to Twitter for the same reasons you go onto Facebook. Well absolutely not. Do you go on to Linkedin for the same reason she go onto Instagram. Probably not you know and and and so of course as the channels have evolved we have to choose the right channels for the job just as we would with any other marketing channel.
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So talking about the right channels and that’s a really interesting point that they have evolved and everyone’s gone on that journey of taking that message and then just broadcasting it or dumping it. I think is probably a good way of describing it on all of those platforms. What changed you seen both for consumers with how they are now communicating or I should say brands and businesses communication to consumers and how have you seen the changes with businesses communicating on social media for business to business use.
00:05:25:18 – 00:06:00:05
So I think what’s happened is that initially the channels were seen as you know mainly entertainment weren’t they it was you know catching up with your friends and connecting with people and and they weren’t really mainstream advertising channels back then which of course they they’ve evolved to become. But let’s not blur the organic activity with the paid for activity. So from an organic perspective what started to happen and from a paid perspective from a consumer level they’ve become more trusted.
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I mean the studies out there around social media being one of the most influential channels when it comes to how we’re influenced in purchasing decisions. In fact the number one influencing channel is social media. We will go there and we will look to what others are doing and we will trust you know what others are doing and we will engage. It’s almost kind of like the wisdom of the crowd concept. So from a consumer perspective we now trust these channels far more than we ever did before.
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And so the relationship between organizations and consumers can be can be so much more human and trusted.
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You know we don’t want to be sold to. We want engaged conversations we want we want to be able to ask questions. We want to be able to see what others think about things and of course that’s all possible through social media. On the B2B side of things I think it’s a similar situation. I think people have woken up to the fact that you can’t just go into these channels and broadcast broadcast. You know I call it filling the feeds and pushing messages out that that actually you have to put in the time and the effort and the the humanity of being able to be human.
00:07:15:02 – 00:08:04:01
You know we talk about humanizing the channels you really do have to have a social aspect to how you engage and and that is that’s a long-term thing isn’t it building a relationship we don’t, you don’t go on a first date and get married. You know you kind of build that relationship as you go and and I think that’s what organizations both B2B and B2C have really got to grips with is that it’s about relationship building. Yes of course they are powerful channels for targeted paid advertising and that’s kind of very different but from an organic perspective you can really grow brand you can really grow relationships you can grow community you know you can really grow communities as as organizations do now
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and that grows influence and that gets you you know your consumers being the Nevana of marketing which is doing the marketing for you so that you know you just sit back in and start the conversation.
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And that’s really where I think things have evolved to.
That’s a very interesting point about starting the conversation and letting kind of sitting back. Are there any sort of industries or businesses that you think are doing a good job with that?
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I think you know I mean those those industries or maybe those organizations such as the service industry whereby we’re in a Covid times at the moment so that might be a little bit
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off topic in as much as airlines travel companies trains you know I think that they have they they do it really well. And as much as engaging with organizations engaging with consumers you know keeping them up to date letting them know what’s going on with their flights or you know challenges or changes. So I think from a communication perspective and as well as having conversations utilizing these channels for for almost customer service type things has become has become really really useful and I think those organizations that maybe started out thinking of it as just customer service have actually been able to really humanize the relationship and build on that.
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I think some universities are doing great jobs with that again with their communications and again are able to build almost a community with the people who are within their buildings and outside of their buildings you know so that they’re utilizing their own students to be the ambassadors to to to market what is going on within that university and what student life is really all about encouraging people to want to come in you know.
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So that’s just you know those those two industries.
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Of course we’ve got the brands you know and the big FMCGs that that are utilizing and doing creative and engaging people in in those creative ways around social but but I do think that those organizations that can really start a conversation keep a conversation going aren’t just pushing out creative endeavor all the time. But rather than listening and tuning in and and having real conversations you know is a really positive way to go.
00:10:35:24 – 00:10:57:21
So on the what’s being done well if you like spectrum there is those that are humanizing the channel. They’re using it to build relationships. They’re using it to co-create. The example you gave with students where do you think marketers skills have come from up to there where they’re now humanizing and using those relationships?
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Well I think I think I’m not sure that the marketers skills
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generally have have had to change that much really.
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If you if you go back to the essence of marketing because marketing is really all about understanding the customer and engaging that customer. And what I remember you know when social media channels first came about for me as a marketer I just thought this is marketing heaven here are channels where I can actually listen to what what my audience is talking about and actually talk back to them and have a conversation they say well what did you mean by that.
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And you know I mean to really have direct conversation it’s something that you know brands and organizations and marketers have been talking about wanting to do for years and years and years and hear all the channels to do exactly that.
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So I think it’s almost a case of marketers that are very well-placed already and very skilled already to understand segmentation you know understanding which audiences are talking about what to take those insights and and and do something with it and help to determine products and services or reshape products and services just by listening to what the audience is saying and then going back out and co-creating with audiences and saying hey do you want to be part of this or you know if you think about it what was what was market research what were focus groups what were all of those other aspects that are all part of the marketing arsenal. If not you know going out and talking to customers finding out what they think and tuning in giving them back what they think seeing how that works out.
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Getting them involved in in co-creation.
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I think marketers at their essence are absolutely you know well-prepared and well you know well skilled for this.
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I think what’s gone wrong is that it’s become blurred and the essence of what social media is isn’t what the essence you or the mainstream of what people think social media is isn’t what social media is. So you know strip it right back. I’ve always approached social media with a marketing perspective being objectively driven. What do we need to achieve? Who do we need to talk to? What do they think? You know let’s do the research first and let’s understand what’s going on in this landscape.
00:13:30:06 – 00:13:54:21
And of course social media tools enable marketers to do just that and then take that and then use your marketing acumen and your marketing skillset to to build on those relationships. You know what is relationship marketing. What is market research what they’re all part of. Of what we do with social media. It’s just become closer to the to the consumer.
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And do you think all marketers are doing that well?
I don’t unfortunately.
I nor do I.
I don’t think they’re doing that well and I don’t know.
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You know I think again this comes back to the yes and the issue of you know there are a lot of marketers who aren’t marketers and and they have a marketing role but they don’t really understand the basic skill base of being a marketer. And so you know we’ve got lots of digital rolls we’ve got lots of you know it’s almost like marketing has been so elongated you know across so many disciplines that the the pure heart of what marketing is is has become a little blurry and a little lost really.
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No a lot of marketers aren’t doing that I meet marketing teams all the time.
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I’m introduced to the marketing teams and they think that social media is filling the feeds. They think it’s just shove anything on there.
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Oh we’ve done a creative campaign over there. Let’s just take some that creative put it onto the channels and put it out there and there you go. That’s now integrated marketing campaign. Well no it’s not. You know because that is just putting putting the picture on a from a, you know, into a non-broadcast channel and expecting it to broadcast and get your results so that’s not going to happen regardless of how creative that that kind of media is.
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I couldn’t agree more. I’m so glad you said no cause I was worried you going to say yes. No. And I think I’m seeing lots of big creative ideas you just said created or primarily with a different platform in mind.
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And then social media being tacked onto it. I’m seeing people kind of going right we’ve taken we’ve got all the platforms are all live we’re broadcasting. They’ve then realized oh actually we could listen on here and do some social listening tools and then they’re using as a form of insight and then they go okay. Maybe we could use this insight to build different propositions or different creative content. They’re mapping content calendars with those topics every day frequency. I’m not seeing as many doing as you were saying that that kind of best in class with the university co-creating.
00:16:16:03 – 00:16:35:27
I’m not seeing many necessarily tailoring it or or actually being part of the dialogue. Nor am I seeing many using it kind of as a relationship tool. What would you say it’s going to take to get marketers to start using the latter using the social media platform for everything that it offers?
00:16:35:29 – 00:16:44:16
Yeah I think that I think actually a good place to start would be internally.
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So you know a lot of our external problems come from internal issues. You know if you’ve got if you’re not walking the talk internally within your own organization and seeing and reaping and understanding the connection and the connectivity that social technologies can enable it doesn’t trigger you to want to do that in the external world.
00:17:05:15 – 00:18:00:16
So you know you just you’re using it almost in a separate way. They’re not just a marketing tool they’re a great way of internal marketing. You know they’re a great way of connecting organizations. They’re a great way of co-creating and breaking down silos within organizations and all of that learning, once you’re doing it internally and you’re really part of that it just triggers so many light bulb moments as to why aren’t we doing this with our customers. If this is successful internally and it’s making us more connected and it’s breaking down those silos and it’s building awareness and driving vision and creativity and connectivity internally all for the good of the business why aren’t we doing this with our customers in the same way which will just manifest in doing you know just as well for the business.
00:18:00:18 – 00:18:33:07
But but from their marketing perspective. So at the moment I feel that it’s a kind of it’s it’s a separate thing. It’s almost like a tool and it sits on the periphery and we use it to push out but actually maybe getting people to utilize it from an internal perspective within and across organizations to really understand the benefits would certainly educate everybody in the organization to understand how then that co-creation could be repurposed to the external to the external.
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We almost need to feed it backwards.
00:18:35:24 – 00:18:46:21
That’s really interesting about the internal point almost let’s start there first. Is that more about the co-creation or is that more about using the social media platforms but internally faced?
00:18:46:23 – 00:19:17:13
I think I think both. I think using the social media platforms internally faced whether you know you’re you know you’re using it either bespoke platforms but the whole you know the whole whether it’s WhatsApp groups you know the fact that you are connected and your co creating and you’re breaking down silos and you you know when you connect with people you can’t help but co-create. It’s what we do you know collaboration it’s collaboration.
00:19:17:17 – 00:19:50:29
And through that collaboration I’m kind of like Hey I didn’t know you were doing that. We’re doing this why don’t we put those two things together and voila. That makes it even better. And you know if you get internal if you get that collaboration and that’s social interactivity happening internally well and you feel and sense everything that that creates and manifests you can then just take that externally. And I think that that’s that is almost is a missing link. I almost feel like people don’t get it externally because they’re not doing it internally.
00:19:51:01 – 00:20:32:00
It’s not triggering it’s not firing all the right insights that that it possibly could. And so yeah then you know that is I think that’s lacking and maybe I’m not saying it is but maybe that’s one of the things and there are organizations that are very well connected internally and I have to say they are doing some incredible things. You know PWC is I know I interviewed one of their directors when I was writing get social and he was telling me all about the things that they do internally but of course they also do a lot of CO creation and a lot of great work externally are their social activity but they’ve nailed it internally.
00:20:32:02 – 00:20:50:01
You know they’ve really given permission to to for people to connect and communicate and and also share their insights and intelligence externally as well. So you know in the professional services side of things I think they’re doing they’re doing a good job.
00:20:50:03 – 00:21:17:29
That’s a really interesting lesson one that I was even expecting that we were going to cover today. I think you know almost like building that skill set and confidence internally before building it externally for both co-creation content insight and then kind of mirroring that externally. What skills do you think marketers need today in order to be more effective with those social media externally? And why is that so important?
00:21:19:08 – 00:21:49:28
I think the strategic planning is important. I think that you know we have to be able to plan strategically it isn’t just a case of putting anything out there and and taking the end of the campaign and putting it into social as we discussed. You know you’ve really got to be thinking about how do these channels operate and how do we optimize the operation of those channels so that we can achieve what it is that we need to achieve. So you know just getting onto the channels and expecting things to happen is not going to happen.
00:21:50:00 – 00:22:24:06
You know you want to be objectively driven. So I think having you know that strategic planning is is absolutely key audience of you know understanding audiences understanding analytics you know really looking at data really taking that data and as you say analyzing what people are saying but understanding you know it’s not about likes and comments or what time of day to post even though that they are also signals that are useful. But it’s that deeper analysis of what is this telling us what can we do with this.
00:22:24:28 – 00:23:03:20
And how do we do something with this. You know it’s all great having all this data and insight but what does that mean? How do we interpret it? So I think that that key that not just the knowledge and the understanding of what you can do with that data and what it’s telling you but also the empowered position to be able to then talk to product development teams and and you know internal research teams and so to kind of say well this is what we’re finding you know this is this is what’s really happening out there so that products can be developed you know and opportunities can be spotted so that there is that.
00:23:03:22 – 00:23:28:02
So I think that you know strategic planning and really understanding the data and the analytics but but not just from a data head perspective you know not just being able to run the numbers having the the knowledge and the understanding the skill to be able to understand from a marketing perspective what that means you know what do we do with this now?
00:23:28:04 – 00:23:33:06
What does that mean for product development? What does that mean for research? What does that mean for knowledge development?
00:23:33:08 – 00:23:37:25
You know what can we do with this not just data.
00:23:38:26 – 00:23:51:08
So yes I think that’s a skill and I think as I said at the beginning being a great communicator which marketers you know that’s that’s in our blood. We if you were marketer it’s because you want to communicate you want to you want to share.
00:23:51:10 – 00:24:18:20
You want to be able to to to communicate effectively whether that’s through creative whether that’s through great copy whether that’s through you know any other endeavor it’s that that ability to communicate listening is all an important part of communicating and and really understanding you know having that that element of what do we, what do we want to achieve here and what is this all telling us.
00:24:18:22 – 00:24:51:16
And of course, you know all the general basic stuff like the customer journey the funnel you know the awareness funnel is you know the consideration funnel. I’m amazed at how many marketers don’t really understand what that means and how they they really need to to map the customer throughout that journey and when it comes to social and digital when you do map that customer you will see that your customer is social is touching that customer at every single point throughout the customer journey.
00:24:51:18 – 00:25:36:16
So what does that mean for you. You know what do you need to do at each point of that journey and how do you need to dial things up and down to meet the needs of your audience so that you can have a continuous meaningful purposeful conversation that actually drives drives results. And so those are just a few few things but yeah I mean all the good skills of the basic marketer communication, strategic planning, and audience you know understanding your audience and being aware of the data and what the data is telling you and what insights you can glean with that and what that means for product development, research development, insight development, you know creative development, campaign development.
00:25:36:19 – 00:25:37:14
What do you do with it.
00:25:37:24 – 00:25:59:01
That’s a really great point. So bringing it back not just to measure how effective that social media’s been but using that form of insight not just to fuel new content but actually other areas of the business. And also, when mapping that customer journey because it is happening or touching social media every single touchpoint. If you have knowledge gaps using social media to close them as well.
00:25:59:17 – 00:26:01:15
Yeah absolutely. Absolutely.
00:26:01:17 – 00:26:11:04
You know I mean you will see those gaps you know and you will see those elements in you know as a marketer you can’t be an expert in all of the nuances around digital.
00:26:11:06 – 00:26:45:03
You know it’s very difficult to be an expert in search engine optimization to be an expert in social media be an expert in data be an expert but you know as a as a marketer I suppose it is and as a senior marketer you’ve got to have a real understanding across the board of how they all dovetail and are inextricably linked. So that you you know you have that understanding of of how it all of how it all works. So you know you have to know you have to get your digital one or one really intact.
00:26:45:05 – 00:26:54:24
You don’t need to be a master of all of those nuances, but you definitely need to need to understand it all.
Yeah, understand that terminology both for direct your teams and your agencies.
00:26:54:26 – 00:26:56:26
Yes. And where’s a good place to get that 101?
00:26:56:28 – 00:27:01:03
No one here I mean I don’t really I haven’t.
00:27:01:17 – 00:27:55:06
I mean yes the business of being social I wrote in 2013 and it really was from a marketers perspective. You know these are the social channels. And and this is how you know you would utilize them from a marketing perspective. And that was republished in 2015. I haven’t really done a new version of that specifically but I suppose myths of social media brings that up to date because it talks about it’s not just about marketing it’s not just about you know creative it’s not you know we do go into a lot of the different different elements of that get socially is much more of a strategy book you know get social was written for leaders who are interested in getting on social media and what that means for them and how they align then with the strategic intent of their organization as well.
00:27:55:08 – 00:28:19:27
So you know they’re slightly different books but yes I think I think Myths of Social Media or the Business of Being Social even though it’s 2015 and some of the channel insights will be out the strategy, the marketing understanding, the conversation, the content the communication none of that is change because that’s just pure marketing advice. It’s a social applied to social.
00:28:19:29 – 00:28:44:14
So that’s that’s pretty universal.
Okay so I’m going to put those links for those in the description and for those that are listening to this podcast thinking you know I don’t know if I do or the principles I need a sense check I will put those links in there. So thank you for that. Just before we close what would be your one top tip for marketers today?
00:28:44:16 – 00:28:50:25
My one top tip for marketers today around social media it could be social media it could be anything.
00:28:50:27 – 00:29:10:26
What you’re imparting thoughts of wisdom I would say OK well marketers you know as a marketer I’m a big champion for marketers. And I think marketers play a very very very important role in any organization. And there’s a lot of frustration there’s a lot of frustrated marketers out there.
00:29:11:00 – 00:29:42:29
And I would say stand in your power marketers you know really stand in your power as a marketer you you were you were the owner of the customer you know and if a business doesn’t have customers it isn’t a business. And that is a very important role. So you know fight stand stand up for that and fight for that and don’t let yourself be shoved into the corner as a kind of promotional throughput because that is not what marketing is about.
00:29:43:01 – 00:29:56:00
And if you are in that position and that isn’t your role then get back to school and learn about what it really takes because I think marketing is too important not to be taken seriously.
00:29:56:02 – 00:30:03:10
You’ve probably a bit emotional Michelle the whole stand in your power, I’m like Yes, that’s what the Whole Marketer’s about, stand in your power.
00:30:05:01 – 00:30:14:24
And on that emotional note thank you so much for joining today’s Whole Marketer podcast. It’s been fantastic. It’s been wonderful. Thank you for having me. My pleasure.
00:30:14:26 – 00:30:23:21
Thank you for tuning in to the Whole Marketer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode please do click follow below for more weekly podcasts. Thank you.
